Lessons Learnt

[Mickie Lane]

"Can't win without the cattle" - big Jack
Many of our best 'cattle' are not available anymore.

2018 Grand Final v Bellamy

Cooper Cronk....no 7
Latrell Mitchell....no 3
Boyd Cordner......no 11
Mitch Aubusson...nos 7/11
SST........................no 10
Jake Friend no 9
Blake Ferguson no 5

Bench:

Liu
Napa
Tetevano
Matterson

Match referees:
Gerard Sutton
Ashley Klein

2019 GF

Brett Morris
Sam Verrills

That's the kind of players, not with us today, needed to beat Bellamy, Bennett, and Cleary to win premierships.

WHY are we allowing ourselves to be beaten up by the media for not having enough juniors, when Bellamy and Bennett get a free pass to just buy players from anywhere?

Bellamy & the Storm buy bugger all established First graders. they're the best in the business in identifying no names & making them into Premiership players & Internationals.
Of course Bennett had to buy all his players because they are new franchise.

[HunchoRooster]

Give some actual critical analysis on the weakness of Trent Robinson as a coach I would love to read it. And real analysis too not BS like “he can’t use a bench” tell me what it is about his current bench usage that’s wrong and how it needs to work properly

None of you have given any analysis on why Robinson is a bad coach or is overrated without being extremely vague like “he can’t use a bench” “he needs a superstar” “Bennett is better”

He uses a bench of 3 at times. Corey Allan didn't play a minute. This has happened countless times during his reign where he overthinks something and uses a player on the bench as a an injury replacement or puts an outside back on there. In the age of 6 again you need all the troops you can get given the fatigue and usually need them to be forwards. When we won the B2B, we had a 4 man bench of forwards who got good minutes every week. This has changed as we constantly see Hutch on the bench getting 5 mins a game and since he has gone into the starting side, we see Allan get 0 mins. That pommy centre last year got 10mins a game when he was on the bench. No purpose in that. There is your rationale as to why people say he "can't use a bench".
We can only hope when we get all the troops back and add in Nathan Brown, that will change and we will get a 4 forward bench.

The superstars comment comes from the fact we won 2013 with SBW who is arguably one of the greatest athletes to ever play the sport of Rugby League in his physical prime, then won 2018 and 2019 with Cooper Cronk, one of the most successful playmakers in history and with arguably the greatest backline ever assembled in the NRL. That is the rationale behind the superstars argument. I dont completely agree with that personally given Robbo helped create a lot of those players who went on to become superstars e.g. Manu, Mitchell.

I think 99% of the pen think Robbo is a good coach, nobody is saying he is bad. They are just pointing out the fact he has a tendency to overthink things despite having a good squad and not being able to rectify recurring worrisome trends in our performances like dropped ball, poor discipline and clunky attack. He gets plenty of credit here so it goes both ways, we can have an opinion when it doesn't go well.

[SamKerrSimp]

He uses a bench of 3 at times. Corey Allan didn't play a minute. This has happened countless times during his reign where he overthinks something and uses a player on the bench as a an injury replacement or puts an outside back on there. In the age of 6 again you need all the troops you can get given the fatigue and usually need them to be forwards. When we won the B2B, we had a 4 man bench of forwards who got good minutes every week. This has changed as we constantly see Hutch on the bench getting 5 mins a game and since he has gone into the starting side, we see Allan get 0 mins. That pommy centre last year got 10mins a game when he was on the bench. No purpose in that. There is your rationale as to why people say he "can't use a bench".
We can only hope when we get all the troops back and add in Nathan Brown, that will change and we will get a 4 forward bench.

Can you tell me how many minutes Jake Arthur played in the grand final? And can you tell me how many minutes he played in the preliminary final? Then can you tell me how many minutes he played in the week 1 match against Penrith? Then can you tell me what the difference between week 1 and week 3 was?

Now tell me how many minutes Corey Allan played against parramatta 2 weeks ago? Now can you tell me how many players we had missing against Melbourne? I hope you’re getting the point but maybe I’ll have to spell it out for you:

Corey Allan is being picked on the bench as a potential injury replacement it’s really simple and when there’s injuries he plays and when there isn’t he won’t. Parramatta regularly in 2022 would use a 3 man interchange with Jake Arthur as an injury replacement and Penrith would do the same with Salmon, Robinson has injuries to deal with and doesn’t have an endless supply of players to bring on to the bench. People call out for random SG ball and NSW cup players every week for decades but these guys aren’t good enough Robinson clearly trusts to get his minutes out of 16 players than playing Whyte when he doesn’t have to. When we have something close to a full strength team he isn’t keeping players on the bench as a just in case, the fact you guys can’t even see why this happens just says it all about the whinging criticism brigade you’ve got NFI.

Week 2 Manu comes back, Hutchinson to the bench, Allan to injury replacement 19 and the 4 interchanges all played in the game, I can’t believe it’s not a coach who has no idea about how to use the bench!

Now that we’ve got that out of the way tell me how he can’t actually use the bench, tell me about his rotation of players and his timing of making interchanges and whether he’s making the right changes at the right times and are the right players getting the right minutes throughout that’s the real use of the bench.

Both Butchers got 80 minutes, JWH got 50, Collins 54, Radley 67 out of 77 available, Smith 63, Turpin 20, May 33, Baker 23. Who’s minutes get reduced so that a 4 bench player (presumably Whyte) gets a run? When do you use him?

[Steggles]

Can you tell me how Parra went in the Grand Final?

[theGman]

If you talk about the bench it is very subjective on whom you have on it and how you use it.

Many will say the following makeup for a bench

2 Props
1 Second dummy half
1 utility player

What type of utility player do you have though - A Forward Utility or a Back Utility - be great if you had a utility that can play a range of back and forward positions such as you know who - H

Not all dummy halves need replacing as they play 80 minutes - so a second dummy half could well be an under utilised bench player - not used at all in a game

If you have a utility back as a number of commentators say you need- if no back goes down and needs replacing then that bench player may not be used in a game either

Ditto a utility forward.

HIA'a and Injuries could throw your interchange bench out as well.

I think they need to look at the bench numbers especially now with category ones

Squads are cut to 19 players - with one player named the 18th player who can be activated for 2 failed HIA's or when a player suffers a game ending injury as a result of foul play where the offender is sin binned or sent off

Why not use both these players - increase the interchange bench from 4 to 5 with the 19th player activated under the same criteria as the 18th player currently is.

5 Player Interchange bench could look like this- same number of interchanges - 8

2 Props
1 Second Dummy Half
1 Utility Forward
1 Utility Back
19th Player who can be activated under the same criteria as the current 18th player is.....

King, I didn't want a thesis.

Just your opinion on what our 4 man bench might resemble in coming weeks when players return from injury and with a bit of luck we have a healthy squad to choose from.

[HunchoRooster]

Can you tell me how many minutes Jake Arthur played in the grand final? And can you tell me how many minutes he played in the preliminary final? Then can you tell me how many minutes he played in the week 1 match against Penrith? Then can you tell me what the difference between week 1 and week 3 was?

Now tell me how many minutes Corey Allan played against parramatta 2 weeks ago? Now can you tell me how many players we had missing against Melbourne? I hope you’re getting the point but maybe I’ll have to spell it out for you:

Corey Allan is being picked on the bench as a potential injury replacement it’s really simple and when there’s injuries he plays and when there isn’t he won’t. Parramatta regularly in 2022 would use a 3 man interchange with Jake Arthur as an injury replacement and Penrith would do the same with Salmon, Robinson has injuries to deal with and doesn’t have an endless supply of players to bring on to the bench. People call out for random SG ball and NSW cup players every week for decades but these guys aren’t good enough Robinson clearly trusts to get his minutes out of 16 players than playing Whyte when he doesn’t have to. When we have something close to a full strength team he isn’t keeping players on the bench as a just in case, the fact you guys can’t even see why this happens just says it all about the whinging criticism brigade you’ve got NFI.

Week 2 Manu comes back, Hutchinson to the bench, Allan to injury replacement 19 and the 4 interchanges all played in the game, I can’t believe it’s not a coach who has no idea about how to use the bench!

Now that we’ve got that out of the way tell me how he can’t actually use the bench, tell me about his rotation of players and his timing of making interchanges and whether he’s making the right changes at the right times and are the right players getting the right minutes throughout that’s the real use of the bench.

Both Butchers got 80 minutes, JWH got 50, Collins 54, Radley 67 out of 77 available, Smith 63, Turpin 20, May 33, Baker 23. Who’s minutes get reduced so that a 4 bench player (presumably Whyte) gets a run? When do you use him?

I'm glad you used Jakob Arthur as an example because I think his dad is one of the worst coaches in the NRL. Parra would've won a comp without him. They are doing well in spite of him. That's for a different debate though. I do know the Parra fans hated that bench set up.

Unlike you, I don't have amazing intellect and hindsight to determine what makes a supercoach. I can only give you my humble opinion but JWH will get far less than 50 and Radley will get less than 67/77 once Sitili/Angus and Lodge return. Turpin's 20 will stay the same or slightly decrease as Smith improves fitness. He is the only one we should carry with limited mins when we have a full squad. That being said, if Smith can eventually play 80 then Turpin won't be required.

[King Salvo]

He uses a bench of 3 at times. Corey Allan didn't play a minute. This has happened countless times during his reign where he overthinks something and uses a player on the bench as a an injury replacement or puts an outside back on there. In the age of 6 again you need all the troops you can get given the fatigue and usually need them to be forwards. When we won the B2B, we had a 4 man bench of forwards who got good minutes every week. This has changed as we constantly see Hutch on the bench getting 5 mins a game and since he has gone into the starting side, we see Allan get 0 mins. That pommy centre last year got 10mins a game when he was on the bench. No purpose in that. There is your rationale as to why people say he "can't use a bench".
We can only hope when we get all the troops back and add in Nathan Brown, that will change and we will get a 4 forward bench.

The superstars comment comes from the fact we won 2013 with SBW who is arguably one of the greatest athletes to ever play the sport of Rugby League in his physical prime, then won 2018 and 2019 with Cooper Cronk, one of the most successful playmakers in history and with arguably the greatest backline ever assembled in the NRL. That is the rationale behind the superstars argument. I dont completely agree with that personally given Robbo helped create a lot of those players who went on to become superstars e.g. Manu, Mitchell.

I think 99% of the pen think Robbo is a good coach, nobody is saying he is bad. They are just pointing out the fact he has a tendency to overthink things despite having a good squad and not being able to rectify recurring worrisome trends in our performances like dropped ball, poor discipline and clunky attack. He gets plenty of credit here so it goes both ways, we can have an opinion when it doesn't go well.

The Hutchinator played more than 5 minutes a game when on the bench for starters

Very subjective the make up of a bench - traditionally it has been - 2 props / 1 second dummy half and a utility player whether a forward or back.

The trend has been to have a back on the bench and there is a possibility they may play limited minutes or no minutes at all as that will depend on any injuries for an example- of course if you don't have one and there is an injury then people including on here will be asking why there was no back on the interchange bench.

Ditto second dummy half - if the staring dummy half plays 80 minutes then the second dummy half may no be used either in a game.

I think you are over exaggerating the impact of set restarts though

Your suggestion is a 4 player bench of all forwards including Brown - so I gather 2 will be props plus Brown and who else

So who is the second dummy half then as Smith is not an 80 minute player and what happens if a back goes down with injury - who will cover for this when you have 4 forwards on the bench

I think you are unknowingly making a case for the Hutchinator to be in the 17 since he can cover both back and forward positions

When you look at the stats from 2018 and 2019 it's pretty interesting reading - you mention dropped ball and poor discipline - certainly they were not strong points of the 2018 and 2019 sides- neither were set completions - Average game possession rate was less that 50% too

The most notable thing in the stats are kicking metres - from 2nd to 16th - if your struggling to make yardage in your sets you need to be able to kick yourself out of trouble - Walker and Keary don't have long kicking games.

2018

Average Game Possession rate - 11th - 47%
Set Completions - 13th - 76%
Tries Scored- 98
Line Breaks - 106
Kicking Metres - 2nd
Errors - 1st
Handling Errors - 2nd
Penalties Conceded - 5th
Tackles made - 1st
Missed tackles - 13th

2019

Average Game Possession rate - 10th - 48%
Set Completions - 14th - 75%
Tries Scored - 118
Line Breaks - 130
Kicking Metres - 2nd
Errors - 1st
Handling Errors - 1st
Penalties Conceded - 2nd
Tackles made - 1st
Missed tackles - 9th

2022

Average Game Possession rate - 6th - 51%
Set Completions - 14th - 75%
Tries scored - 115
Line Breaks - 134
Kicking Metres - 16th
Errors - 4th
Handling Errors - 4th
Penalties Conceded - 3rd
Tackles made - 6th
Missed tackles - 10th


https://www.nrl.com/stats/?competition=111&season=2019

[HunchoRooster]

The Hutchinator played more than 5 minutes a game when on the bench for starters

Very subjective the make up of a bench - traditionally it has been - 2 props / 1 second dummy half and a utility player whether a forward or back.

The trend has been to have a back on the bench and there is a possibility they may play limited minutes or no minutes at all as that will depend on any injuries for an example- of course if you don't have one and there is an injury then people including on here will be asking why there was no back on the interchange bench.

Ditto second dummy half - if the staring dummy half plays 80 minutes then the second dummy half may no be used either in a game.

I think you are over exaggerating the impact of set restarts though

Your suggestion is a 4 player bench of all forwards including Brown - so I gather 2 will be props plus Brown and who else

So who is the second dummy half then as Smith is not an 80 minute player and what happens if a back goes down with injury - who will cover for this when you have 4 forwards on the bench

I think you are unknowingly making a case for the Hutchinator to be in the 17 since he can cover both back and forward positions

When you look at the stats from 2018 and 2019 it's pretty interesting reading - you mention dropped ball and poor discipline - certainly they were not strong points of the 2018 and 2019 sides- neither were set completions - Average game possession rate was less that 50% too

The most notable thing in the stats are kicking metres - from 2nd to 16th - if your struggling to make yardage in your sets you need to be able to kick yourself out of trouble - Walker and Keary don't have long kicking games.

2018

Average Game Possession rate - 11th - 47%
Set Completions - 13th - 76%
Tries Scored- 98
Line Breaks - 106
Kicking Metres - 2nd
Errors - 1st
Handling Errors - 2nd
Penalties Conceded - 5th
Tackles made - 1st
Missed tackles - 13th

2019

Average Game Possession rate - 10th - 48%
Set Completions - 14th - 75%
Tries Scored - 118
Line Breaks - 130
Kicking Metres - 2nd
Errors - 1st
Handling Errors - 1st
Penalties Conceded - 2nd
Tackles made - 1st
Missed tackles - 9th

2022

Average Game Possession rate - 6th - 51%
Set Completions - 14th - 75%
Tries scored - 115
Line Breaks - 134
Kicking Metres - 16th
Errors - 4th
Handling Errors - 4th
Penalties Conceded - 3rd
Tackles made - 6th
Missed tackles - 10th


https://www.nrl.com/stats/?competition=111&season=2019

Love your work King, especially your ability to intrinsically link Hutch back into the argument, even going as far to say that I want him in the 17 based off my previous comments.

No, I would personally play a bench of: Egan, Sitili, Baker, JWH assuming we have Lodge back aswell. I wouldn't play Brown because I would want to see our young forwards develop ahead of him (Baker and May) but I know that won't happen. Sitili, N. Butch or Angus can cover the centres should we get an injury there. All would do a better job than Hutch or Allan.

Smith should be able to play 80 eventually given his pay grade. Until he can, I'd play Turpin there. If you are talking about completely fit squad, I'd put Watson at 14 and probably leave out Baker.

Hutch to lead the Bears to a Knock-On Effect Premiership win with his newfound experience in the big time! Will run the show with the 7 on his back. At the end of the season, the conversation will be who is the greatest North Sydney player ever? Florimo, Irvine... or Drew "Clutch" Hutchison.

[King Salvo]

King, I didn't want a thesis.

Just your opinion on what our 4 man bench might resemble in coming weeks when players return from injury and with a bit of luck we have a healthy squad to choose from.

Possible Bench

14. Hutch or Turpin
15 and 16 2 Props - Whoever doesn't start out of JWH/Collins/Lodge - Baker or May
17. Sitili or E Butcher or Brown

Thus the Starting side

1. Tedesco
2. Toops
3. Suaalii or Momirovski or Billy Smith
4. Manu
5. Paulo or Suaalii
6. Keary
7. Walker
8. * Collins
9. B Smith
10. * JWH
11. Crichton
12. N Butcher
13. Radley

* Subject to Change as per the above bench

Watson not considered as no return date is known

[Eggspert]

The Hutchinator played more than 5 minutes a game when on the bench for starters

Very subjective the make up of a bench - traditionally it has been - 2 props / 1 second dummy half and a utility player whether a forward or back.

The trend has been to have a back on the bench and there is a possibility they may play limited minutes or no minutes at all as that will depend on any injuries for an example- of course if you don't have one and there is an injury then people including on here will be asking why there was no back on the interchange bench.

Ditto second dummy half - if the staring dummy half plays 80 minutes then the second dummy half may no be used either in a game.

I think you are over exaggerating the impact of set restarts though

Your suggestion is a 4 player bench of all forwards including Brown - so I gather 2 will be props plus Brown and who else

So who is the second dummy half then as Smith is not an 80 minute player and what happens if a back goes down with injury - who will cover for this when you have 4 forwards on the bench

I think you are unknowingly making a case for the Hutchinator to be in the 17 since he can cover both back and forward positions

When you look at the stats from 2018 and 2019 it's pretty interesting reading - you mention dropped ball and poor discipline - certainly they were not strong points of the 2018 and 2019 sides- neither were set completions - Average game possession rate was less that 50% too

The most notable thing in the stats are kicking metres - from 2nd to 16th - if your struggling to make yardage in your sets you need to be able to kick yourself out of trouble - Walker and Keary don't have long kicking games.

2018

Average Game Possession rate - 11th - 47%
Set Completions - 13th - 76%
Tries Scored- 98
Line Breaks - 106
Kicking Metres - 2nd
Errors - 1st
Handling Errors - 2nd
Penalties Conceded - 5th
Tackles made - 1st
Missed tackles - 13th

2019

Average Game Possession rate - 10th - 48%
Set Completions - 14th - 75%
Tries Scored - 118
Line Breaks - 130
Kicking Metres - 2nd
Errors - 1st
Handling Errors - 1st
Penalties Conceded - 2nd
Tackles made - 1st
Missed tackles - 9th

2022

Average Game Possession rate - 6th - 51%
Set Completions - 14th - 75%
Tries scored - 115
Line Breaks - 134
Kicking Metres - 16th
Errors - 4th
Handling Errors - 4th
Penalties Conceded - 3rd
Tackles made - 6th
Missed tackles - 10th


https://www.nrl.com/stats/?competition=111&season=2019

Gotta say very interesting stats for 18/19
Worst error rate but still went B2B

Thats when the Bondi wall was at its finest & would absorb all the pressure coming from their mistakes.

Also players like Cronk, Latrell, Cordner & Friend were worth their weight in gold.

What could have been if Latrell, Cords & Friend played together for another 2-3yrs.

[SamKerrSimp]

I'm glad you used Jakob Arthur as an example because I think his dad is one of the worst coaches in the NRL. Parra would've won a comp without him. They are doing well in spite of him. That's for a different debate though. I do know the Parra fans hated that bench set up.

Unlike you, I don't have amazing intellect and hindsight to determine what makes a supercoach. I can only give you my humble opinion but JWH will get far less than 50 and Radley will get less than 67/77 once Sitili/Angus and Lodge return. Turpin's 20 will stay the same or slightly decrease as Smith improves fitness. He is the only one we should carry with limited mins when we have a full squad. That being said, if Smith can eventually play 80 then Turpin won't be required.

Arthur took his team to a grand final but he’s a bad coach, fmd this place is unreal. Anyway I’m glad you couldn’t tell me how Robinson is unable to use a bench out side of he occasionally keeps an unused injury replacement when the team has injuries so we never have to deal with this subject again.

[SamKerrSimp]

The trend has been to have a back on the bench and there is a possibility they may play limited minutes or no minutes at all as that will depend on any injuries for an example- of course if you don't have one and there is an injury then people including on here will be asking why there was no back on the interchange bench.

Finally someone gets it. In the era of HIA the need for a bench to cover all options is important, it’s not that hard to figure out why teams have started to use a bench spot for a player who is only there in case of injury or HIA.

[HunchoRooster]

Arthur took his team to a grand final but he’s a bad coach, fmd this place is unreal. Anyway I’m glad you couldn’t tell me how Robinson is unable to use a bench out side of he occasionally keeps an unused injury replacement when the team has injuries so we never have to deal with this subject again.

Just rephrase it to "I don't agree with your opinion so you are wrong and I'm much smarter than you and you can't prove me otherwise", use that as your sig at the end of each post, will save lots of time given that's the well you end up going back to when faced with any opposition.

Arthur is a bang average coach. If getting a very talented team to a grand final and then getting horrifically outplayed in said GF is the litmus test for a great coach then good for you mate.

[HunchoRooster]

Finally someone gets it. In the era of HIA the need for a bench to cover all options is important, it’s not that hard to figure out why teams have started to use a bench spot for a player who is only there in case of injury or HIA.

So you are telling me that playing Hutchison or Allan in the 17 is vital to the team's success because of a possible unforeseen injury? Given the vast majority of HIA's are usually forwards, it would be more beneficial carrying an extra forward.

In the event its a back, we have 3 high quality fullback options in the starting side. I am certain one of either Sitili, Angus or Nat Butcher could fill in at centre at a pinch should the unfortunate event of a HIA occur to a key player at the back. Obviously this applies to when 2 of those 3 players I mentioned are fit.

[SamKerrSimp]

Just rephrase it to "I don't agree with your opinion so you are wrong and I'm much smarter than you and you can't prove me otherwise", use that as your sig at the end of each post, will save lots of time given that's the well you end up going back to when faced with any opposition.

Arthur is a bang average coach. If getting a very talented team to a grand final and then getting horrifically outplayed in said GF is the litmus test for a great coach then good for you mate.

Bellamy must suck given how badly they got pounded in 2018

As for you above comment Corey Allan has already come off the bench twice this year due to injury. Give it a rest you’ve got no clue, you’re calling people who are elite in their field bang average while you can’t even properly explain bench usage.