Keary and the one head know away aphorism

[Bruce Pickett]

Just to show the amount of ignorance on this issue and how the majority of us are sheeple who just listen to the drivel served up by the media, Mark Carroll has said he is diagnosed with CTE.

Sorry Mark, but there is only ONE way you can be diagnosed with CTE - by having tissues from your brain cut off and examining it. In other words it can ONLY be diaganosed post mortem. Unless you're willing to have yourself euthanised just to have your brain examined.

The amount of ignorance and hysteria based on ANECDOTAL evidence rather than epidemiology (ie statistics) is mind blowing - pun intended. And while anecdotes pull at the heart string, it is not helpful in making informed decisions.

And for the record, the average Joe Blow who has never played footy or any sport for that matter can also get CTE.

[Big Dog]

Just to show the amount of ignorance on this issue and how the majority of us are sheeple who just listen to the drivel served up by the media, Mark Carroll has said he is diagnosed with CTE.

Sorry Mark, but there is only ONE way you can be diagnosed with CTE - by having tissues from your brain cut off and examining it. In other words it can ONLY be diaganosed post mortem. Unless you're willing to have yourself euthanised just to have your brain examined.

The amount of ignorance and hysteria based on ANECDOTAL evidence rather than epidemiology (ie statistics) is mind blowing - pun intended. And while anecdotes pull at the heart string, it is not helpful in making informed decisions.

And for the record, the average Joe Blow who has never played footy or any sport for that matter can also get CTE.

Maybe spud had a frontal lobotomy?

[Waylander]

I'd rather a bottle in front of me, than a frontal labotomy.

[Rooster36]

Just to show the amount of ignorance on this issue and how the majority of us are sheeple who just listen to the drivel served up by the media, Mark Carroll has said he is diagnosed with CTE.

Sorry Mark, but there is only ONE way you can be diagnosed with CTE - by having tissues from your brain cut off and examining it. In other words it can ONLY be diaganosed post mortem. Unless you're willing to have yourself euthanised just to have your brain examined.

The amount of ignorance and hysteria based on ANECDOTAL evidence rather than epidemiology (ie statistics) is mind blowing - pun intended. And while anecdotes pull at the heart string, it is not helpful in making informed decisions.

And for the record, the average Joe Blow who has never played footy or any sport for that matter can also get CTE.

Agree re Carroll there is t much brain tissue to cut out… however this is a real issue and the game need to do everything possible to improve it

[Carlos Parra]

I'm struggling to understand the thread topic.

[Bruce Pickett]

Agree re Carroll there is t much brain tissue to cut out… however this is a real issue and the game need to do everything possible to improve it

Mate

I applaud the NRL and it's 11 day rest stance. They should probably make it 14 days and make it a neat 2 games.

Of course it's better not to get hit in the head than to get hit in the head. You don't need to be a brain surgeion to know this. We've seen the effect on Muhammad Ali (Parkinsons disease) and other boxers. Concussion is not new and people have known the dangers of it for 100 years.

What's relatively new is a pioneering doctor, Anne Mckee, discovering CTE when doing the autopsies of 110 deceased NFL players (all reported with behaviooural problems eg mood swings, dementia, depression etc).

Here's a few things I've found:

1. CTE can only be discovered via autopsy, because it requires taking bits of the brain and 'putting it under the microscope' so to speak.

What is CTE? | Concussion Legacy Foundation (concussionfoundation.org)

Note the following:
Currently, CTE can only be diagnosed after death through brain tissue analysis. Doctors with a specialty in brain diseases slice brain tissue and use special chemicals to make the abnormal tau protein visible. They then systematically search areas of the brain for tau in the unique pattern specific to CTE. The process can take several months to complete, and the analysis is not typically performed as a part of a normal autopsy. In fact, until recently there were relatively few doctors who knew how to diagnose CTE.

Note that this is from the site which Dr Anne McKee works for. So despite what Peter Fitzsimmons says, it can only be determined post mortem.

2. The question has to be asked is it CTE that causes the symptoms such as depression, demential etc? I know for a fact that scientists have found a very high correlation between obesity and dementia. Now does this mean that being fat makes you get dementia or is it that lazy people who don't exercise their brain or their bodies are more prone to get dementia? Is it CTE or is it obesity?

3. There is an inherent bias in the methods of Anne Mckee's researcg.

https://sports.yahoo.com/op-ed-one-f...150349666.html

Note the following:

Also, many of the 111 NFL brains were donated by deceased players’ family members specifically because the players had displayed symptoms of mood, cognitive or behavioral disorders. That’s selection bias. If you only look at brains from people who seem to have neurological problems, don’t be surprised when you find signs of those problems. A better approach would have been to randomly examine brains from some ex-players who exhibited mood, cognitive or behavioral issues as well as from some who didn’t. But this study didn’t do that.

Strike two.

Finally, there was no attempt made in the research paper (or the subsequent coverage) to control for or account for all the other factors in the lives of the deceased players that could have contributed to the condition of their brains. For example, nearly half the players had a history of substance abuse, suicidal thinking or a family history of psychiatric problems, but these were offered as possible results of CTE, not as possible independent causes of mood, cognitive or behavioral disorders.

In fact, 67 percent of the players found to have mild CTE also had substance abuse problems – and the abuse of some drugs can cause the key physical sign of CTE, deposits of a protein called tau in the brain. By the way, obesity, steroid use, cigarette smoking and chronic stress can also cause many of the physical signs of CTE. For example, 2016 research from the University of British Columbia found that anabolic steroid use causes CTE-like brain changes in mice, while research published in Frontiers in Neuroscience in 2014 found that obesity increases tau deposits in the brain. Were any of those former players obese, smokers or steroid users? Did they experience a lot of stress? We have no idea, because the study either didn’t ask or doesn’t tell us.

Strike three. You’re out.

The authors of above link were an ex NFL player (Merril Hoge) and Dr Peter Cummings a nueropathologist, which is also what Dr McKee is. So the above quote is stating some real inherent weaknesses in Dr Mckee's research.

4. CTE has been found in average people who had nothing to do with footy or other contact sport:

Largest study of CTE finds it in 6% of subjects: Interestingly, the traumatic brain disease is identified in both athletes and non-athletes. -- ScienceDaily


A small number of cases, 42, had CTE pathology (5.6% of the total). CTE was found in 27 athletes and 15 non-athletes, and in 41 men and one woman. American football had the highest frequency of CTE (15%) of the contact sports studied, with participation beyond high school resulting in the highest risk of developing CTE.


Finally, I found some research that tried to obtain statistical data. The above quote states that there were 2566 brain autopsies that took place and about 42 had CTE - ie 6%. This is about the only attempt to make an epidemiological study on this issue as you can imagine, most folk aren't going to want to donate a decease'd for science study - they just want to have the funeral and get it over and done with. So in other words, these 2566 were normal people. Of the 42 findings, 27 were athletes (ie played sport of some sort) and 15 were non athletes. So normal people get CTE too, not just NRL or NFL players. The 27 athletes were high school/uni athletes like a lot on this forum.

5. NFL payment was a settlement not a legal payout. ie the NFL's doctors argued against the doctors and lawyerr representing the retired players. Of course you and I would raise a cynical eyebrow about this, but it does show one thing: the medical fraternity should never be considered beyond reproach. They will put forward evidence/findings that will fulfill their personal ambitions just like you and me.

The amount was 800m which is a lot. But when you consider the annual turnover of the NFL is 13b, and the settlement was to paid in instalments, it probably made good commercial sense for NFL owners to just settle and get on with it rather than getting bogged down in legal matters, because the suits (NFL) will never beat the battlers (retired players doing it tough physically and financially) in the court of public opinion. It sounds like an admission of guilt, but I reckon it was just a sound businesss decision. Note 800m/13b = 6%, so it's not small but it's definitely not large.


For all the stories of ex players doing it tought, there's many, many more who don't suffer. Peter Fitzsimmons keeps putting mention players like Mortimer, Simmons, Pricey etc but there's heaps of players who are doing fine. If you want anecdotes here's one:

Roger Staubach was the superstar QB of the Dallas Cowboys in the 70's who won 2 Superbowls. Before Tom Brady and Joe Montanna, there was the original Roger the Dodger. Staubach retired in 1979 because he suffered 20 concussions of which about 14 was where he totally lost conscienceness. So the seriousness of concussion is NOT new. When the legal suit was made agains t hte NFL, they were hoping to have Staubach as the poster boy. But he politely refused saying he knew what he was doing. Staubach built up a career in commercial real estate after his career and sold his business to Jones Lang Laselle for 600m about 20 years ago. He is almost 80 years old and despite all his concussions, he is doing fine both in mind and body. So why doesn't Fitsimmons write about him??? Because if you use anecdotal evidence, it can go both ways, so it's not very helpful in making informed decisions.

Also, when one considers the wealthfare of a player, shouldn't we take a wholistic look? ie both physical well being AND financial well being? The current analogy with COVID is a good one in that sure it probably would be better healthwise if we had a lockdown. BUT it won't work economically (unless we want to live in the Mad Max 2 world).

When Friend and Cordner made their decisions, I'm hoping they were looking at their welfare in a wholistic manner. IT would be totally unfair on them and their family if the advice they received were somehow tainted by the current hysteria surround the (not so new) concussion issues.

There is no such thing as a risk free environment.

[takethe 2]

Oh Carlos, that’s not good mate. First sign of CTE

[Johnny73]

More than once during fun time with a lady I've bumped heads with her...does that mean I can claim CTE if I forget to take out the garbage?

[Waylander]

I'm struggling to understand the thread topic.

I believe it's meant to be "Keary and the one head knock away (from retirement) aphorism"

Aphorism = a pithy observation which contains a general truth