Lest We Forget

[zac]

The truth about ANZAC Day for most Aussies is that it’s usually a day off work and a great opportunity to get pissed.

drinking responsibly is probably better, but it's fine by me that people just enjoy the day. not a fan of enforced patriotism.

i don't think 61's intent is to be disrespectful to the returned soldiers and to those who didn't return. over the years there's been some humbug about Anzac day and Eric Bogle's terrific song and the play, one day of the year, need to be remembered as part of the experience.

[Thirteen]

Interesting to read your thoughts Random though the reference to rape and the Red Army needs some qualification. Rape is an horrific bi product of every war right up to the present and you might recall that some years back the RSL refused to allow a group - "Remember Women Raped in War" - to take part in the March when that sort of uncomfortable recall is exactly what the day should be all about.
Since human conflict began, armies have pillaged, murdered randomly (the SAS in Afghanistan recently) and raped innocent women and children but as the Cold War set in, the Red Army came in for particular attention in the interests of propaganda - as though it (The Red Army) was uniquely culpable.
The fact is that WW2 was overwhelmingly a Russo- German war which was won by the Red Army. D-Day, the bombing war crimes and the Western Desert were piffling compared to the gargantuan struggle in Russia - the Germans had hundreds of Divisions in the East and just 9 in Western Europe. As a base number the USSR lost 20 million soldiers and citizens (some say up to 50 million) not to mention the virtual destruction of vast swathes of its territory. Despite urgent Russian calls for a second front and with most of the German military in Russia, the western allies prevaricated as they had done at the beginning when nothing was done about the Fascists moving East toward Russia (more than anything else, Fascism (propped up everywhere by Capitalists) was anti communist.
Words can't begin to describe the suffering in the USSR during the three years of invasion - everywhere murder, mayhem and rape. After the Battle of the Kursk (the largest tank battle in history) the "allies" finally decided to get offensive rather than see the Red Army occupy all of Germany which had, after all, invaded Russia and all but destroyed it.
In Australia we never heard that the Red Army won the war but we did hear quite a lot about the Russians being devious and untrustworthy, "imprisoning" European countries. From their perspective they were taking back what had been destroyed by those who had invaded them. WW2 was a cataclysm from which the Soviets never really recovered, Uncle Sam made sure of that.

Change your avatar we don’t like red and green around here.

[Random Rooster]

After WW1 Germany should've been dealt with properly, ... then there wouldn't have been any populist German reaction and WW2.
And not an "Auschwitz" in sight.

It was total lunacy just giving Germany back its guns after WW1 and basicaly saying "try again".

Rubbish. Here you have the present President of France saying that the Treaty of Versailles was flawed and it was France that was mainly responsible. He is owning up to it because thats what real men do.

If you really think that Germany was given back its guns after WW1 and told to "try again" then you obviously have no idea

[Paddo Colt 61]

No 1908 I didn't know "that being a moron is a choice not a pre requisite" until I saw that you'd clearly made that choice sometime earlier in life. "Blahblahblah....." is that how you remember your high school education which I'm sure must have involved attempts to encourage rational thought - the old English text book back in the day - UBE (Using Better English) had a whole chapter on the abuses of language - things like overly emotional argument, propaganda and euphemism all seemingly lost in the fog of teenage inattention. The Tele is written for a reading age of 10.4 which means that a normal child of 10 years and four months can understand it and it has an agenda - those Misuses of English in the old UBE are required reading for the staff.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

What a shame your annual tribute thread is being derailed in such a disrespectful and inflammatory manner. It's a day for being respectful and reflective not combative and brutish.

I knew it would, but wasn't going to 'not' post something that the majority would appreciate, because of that.

Haters gonna hate as they say. I'm not going to engage them (in this thread anyway) as it just fans their flames.

Hope you had a good morning!

[Rooster1908]

Again well done Jack on the thread and I thought the PM's speech was excellant , hope everyone is having an enjoyable day living in this great country that those who fought for us in the past have sacrificed so much for us to have ,

[ism22]

I knew it would, but wasn't going to 'not' post something that the majority would appreciate, because of that.

Haters gonna hate as they say. I'm not going to engage them (in this thread anyway) as it just fans their flames.

Hope you had a good morning!

I think the joy of democracy is that we're allowed to discuss whether days of national significant are actually based on true representations of history.

In my case my dad's family escaped Italy before WWII because they disagreed with the politics. They lived in a tent for 10 years (building significant railroads that supported our exports/supply chains) and then used the money they'd stashed away to buy up a pub. Then a few more local businesses (employing + serving thousands of returned soldiers). BUT... but... after WWII all the fukking racist soldiers came home expecting jobs and a job working for naturalised Australians from Italian backgrounds (who'd done alright for themselves) wasn't good enough. Their city had well documented race riots (oh and something something 'white Australia policy') and they were sent 'home' to Italy... where they had no visa, citizenship, home or belongings. During the trip, two of my dad's brother's died. He was then able to sneak back into Australia (where he was a citizen... again... he wasn't Italian because he'd been naturalised) and he self-funded a law degree. His parents and living siblings eventually made it back however, they all had to start over again.

So I dunno... we all have fukking ANZAC stories. In summary:
- Dad's a 'wog' (enemy)
- Daughter's 1/2 Japanese (enemy)
- Wife and other kids are Vietnamese ('commies' so got attacked during the Vietnam War)

My position is fark war and fark any message that soldiers are heroes. There's no heroes in war and we are all fukking lucky that our collective efforts led to where we are today because some seriously fukked up shyte happened along the way that TBH please... LET ME FORGET some of it... PLEASE!!!

[Old Man Rooster]

No 1908 I didn't know "that being a moron is a choice not a pre requisite" until I saw that you'd clearly made that choice sometime earlier in life. "Blahblahblah....." is that how you remember your high school education which I'm sure must have involved attempts to encourage rational thought - the old English text book back in the day - UBE (Using Better English) had a whole chapter on the abuses of language - things like overly emotional argument, propaganda and euphemism all seemingly lost in the fog of teenage inattention. The Tele is written for a reading age of 10.4 which means that a normal child of 10 years and four months can understand it and it has an agenda - those Misuses of English in the old UBE are required reading for the staff.

I appreciate your nuanced thoughts. Its hard for some simple folk to understand.

[Old Man Rooster]

Both of my grandfathers served in WWII. My mother's father was a prisoner in Changi. War is horrible. Im glad Im not a right wing cliche due to it.

[bondi.boy]

Rubbish. Here you have the present President of France saying that the Treaty of Versailles was flawed and it was France that was mainly responsible. He is owning up to it because thats what real men do.

If you really think that Germany was given back its guns after WW1 and told to "try again" then you obviously have no idea

Where did Germany get all that military equipment from with which it invaded
Poland, France etc?
After WW1 it was basically just allowed to re-arm. "Given back it's guns" in essence.
It was allowed to still exist, still govern itself, still make tanks, war planes, bombs, and have another turn at taking over the world.
Yes, total lunacy it was.
And as a result look what happened, ...we had to send our men and women to war again because of it.

[bondi.boy]

I think the joy of democracy is that we're allowed to discuss whether days of national significant are actually based on true representations of history.

In my case my dad's family escaped Italy before WWII because they disagreed with the politics. They lived in a tent for 10 years (building significant railroads that supported our exports/supply chains) and then used the money they'd stashed away to buy up a pub. Then a few more local businesses (employing + serving thousands of returned soldiers). BUT... but... after WWII all the fukking racist soldiers came home expecting jobs and a job working for naturalised Australians from Italian backgrounds (who'd done alright for themselves) wasn't good enough. Their city had well documented race riots (oh and something something 'white Australia policy') and they were sent 'home' to Italy... where they had no visa, citizenship, home or belongings. During the trip, two of my dad's brother's died. He was then able to sneak back into Australia (where he was a citizen... again... he wasn't Italian because he'd been naturalised) and he self-funded a law degree. His parents and living siblings eventually made it back however, they all had to start over again.

So I dunno... we all have fukking ANZAC stories. In summary:
- Dad's a 'wog' (enemy)
- Daughter's 1/2 Japanese (enemy)
- Wife and other kids are Vietnamese ('commies' so got attacked during the Vietnam War)

My position is fark war and fark any message that soldiers are heroes. There's no heroes in war and we are all fukking lucky that our collective efforts led to where we are today because some seriously fukked up shyte happened along the way that TBH please... LET ME FORGET some of it... PLEASE!!!

The minute Rome signed on with Hitler ...and started killing Aussies, "Italians" in Australia were going to be in strife.

Same thing happened in America to
"Japanese", including Japanese-Americans. Their assets seized and they put into internment camps.
Japanese spies in Pearl Harbour etc.
1939-45 was long ago.

My Prussian (Prussia = Germany/Poland) ancestor left Hamburg in the mid 1800s, arrived in South Australia, Karl Marx and co were taking over in Europe, making decrees like "previously-hereditary property had to be purchased by the inheritors"...from the state. Death taxes, basically.

We used to have them here. The People had them abolished.
If you hear our politicians even mention
"Death taxes"...or anything resembling them...run a mile.
They'll be after your assets, what you've worked hard for to leave to your children.
40% death tax/estate tax...you have a home worth $1m...that's $400,000 the govt man takes.
Quite a lucrative 'business'.
Most likely the home will have to be sold to pay that tax. Many family farms were lost here like that.

Anyway, German-Polish ancestor with same culture names, settled in the Adelaide Hills...with the other Lutherans who'd gone before him. Martin Luther their man.
By the time ancestor arrived, those before him had bought all the good land.
He had to buy the land full of big stones, rocks...Only one cow per acre could be raised.
He worked hard, married, and down the line eventually came bondi.boy (after the pretty, blonde-haired, blue eyed, fraulein married a black-haired, brown-eyed Welshman in NSW. ..who went off to war to fight the Germans (Japanese in PNG actually) in WW2.
By then she'd changed her surname by marriage and was living in Sydney. Blonde, Welsh name, she was fine...well until looking for accommodation to rent with her birth 'Christian name'.

Back at the other families, they were pounced on by the govt, watched, recorded, had to report to the cops or else, just like being on parole.
They weren't locked up.
Who to blame?
Hitler and all those in Germany cheering for him.

[Paddo Colt 61]

Heartening to see those posts which, at least, show that the writers have qualms about "Anzackery", as it's called, with its cruises to Turkey ($9K - $90K), the battlefields, Kokoda tours a growing torrent of merchandising generally. This "Stand at the Gate" thing is a Murdoch/Telegraph campaign and apart from the revenue earned (ads for things you can spend money on - see above), they aim to cultivate the kind of patriotism that thinks that it's okay to join in on attacking other people as we did back then and are doing now in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria (air strikes).
Newscorp's hypocrisy is truly staggering - it's a war loving corporate behemoth that's proud to get behind public acceptance of a future where we are one of the biggest exporters of military weapons. They sold you a gig economy minus unions which will deprive a generation of ordinary kids of a future that they might be able to bank on. Rupert heads up an extreme right wing political party - just think about that muslim stuff a while back and the growing current China-phobia. It's our children whom we need to factor into all this.

[redwhiteblue]

I knew it would, but wasn't going to 'not' post something that the majority would appreciate, because of that.

Haters gonna hate as they say. I'm not going to engage them (in this thread anyway) as it just fans their flames.

Hope you had a good morning!

Yes it was lovely in the morning sun thanks Jack . I ended up watching the 10am broadcast on ABC from Martin Place/Hyde Park and it was eerie seeing virtually no one on the streets. Just watched the stream of the 2017 match and the highlight for me was Ray Warren having to eat his words within 5 minutes of mocking Mitchell Pearce for missing 19 previous field goal attempts, only for him to knock it over and then go win the Ashton-Collier medal straight after..

Looking forward to the concert tonight with Jimmy Barnes, Ian Moss and so many other Australia artists who quickly gave up their time for something that was only pulled together this week. Nice way to finish the day.

[Jacks Fur Coat]

Yes it was lovely in the morning sun thanks Jack . I ended up watching the 10am broadcast on ABC from Martin Place/Hyde Park and it was eerie seeing virtually no one on the streets. Just watched the stream of the 2017 match and the highlight for me was Ray Warren having to eat his words within 5 minutes of mocking Mitchell Pearce for missing 19 previous field goal attempts, only for him to knock it over and then go win the Ashton-Collier medal straight after..

Looking forward to the concert tonight with Jimmy Barnes, Ian Moss and so many other Australia artists who quickly gave up their time for something that was only pulled together this week. Nice way to finish the day.

That's right....surely "When the War is Over" gets a run!

Been an inspirational day seeing how all the media and most importantly everyday Aussies have marked the occasion.

Takes more than a virus to kill the spirit of the Anzac.

Normally hiking home from the big game around now. What a brilliant day it would have been for it....sigh.

[redwhiteblue]

That's right....surely "When the War is Over" gets a run!

Been an inspirational day seeing how all the media and most importantly everyday Aussies have marked the occasion.

Takes more than a virus to kill the spirit of the Anzac.

Normally hiking home from the big game around now. What a brilliant day it would have been for it....sigh.

Steve Prestwich gave me a pair of his drumsticks at a gig at the Annandale Hotel years ago. I've got them right next to me now.

I'm glad they streamed not just the game but the ceremony beforehand even though it was from 2017 and also the end presentation so it made it less like we didn't have a game to go to this year. Just remember, one day this too shall pass