Roosters sign another under 18 Kiwi star Piki Te Ora Rogers

[Headless Chook]

I think you're splitting hairs there. I see little difference, skill wise, passing before the line as opposed to offloading at or through it for a pig, either will create second phase play and both are regarded as "ball playing" by most pundits. I agree Taka is the best proponent of second phase play at our club at present and I can't wait to see him on the oppposite side to one SBW next year.

Chook.

Wow....you can't see the difference between say Brad Taka's cut out pass to Leilua against Souths and an Anthony Tupou off load? They are streets apart and require different skills.

[Darkone]

Mate every backrower tries to ball play these days, if they don't they're a prop.

My point is, this kid will have to be a Fletch or a Carty or a Clyde to really stand out.

Chook.

Be happy if he played like Hugh McGann

[Guest]

I'm just glad we are signing these kids who are in hot demand. They WANT to come to the club. He sounds keen and switched on so here's hoping he makes the grade and becomes a success at our club

[Vasco]

Mini is a 5/8 trapped in a old man's body!

Mini is anything but a 5/8.

[Guest]

Wow....you can't see the difference between say Brad Taka's cut out pass to Leilua against Souths and an Anthony Tupou off load? They are streets apart and require different skills.

Headless you seem to be under the impression that forwards have been regularly throwing cut out passes when they haven't. It was only this season that Hasler had his forwards chain passing before the line and it was deemed innovative, which it was. But not even the dogs forwards are throwing cut out passes! Taka has thrown two cut out passes in two years. It's not the norm for a forward. Offloading is the norm for a forward and that deems them a ball playing forward, Fletch, Cartright, Clyde, non of them were renowned for their cut out passes but for their offloading ability.

And if you want to split hairs Headless, chain passing before the line is a hell of a lot easier than offloading in it where you have players trying to wrap up the ball.

Chook.

[Yak]

I highly doubt most people would consider offloading and ball playing to be the same thing. As headless says they require completely different skill sets. Ball playing is always performed before or at the line, not after impact. The cut out pass was just an example of a ball playing skill. Taka and Bosden, in the games that he's played, are both often involved in block plays as not just the front block runner but often the player passing to the sweeping man out the back, this would also be considered ball playing. I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. I don't think the Des Hasler structure that we saw this year is really the best example of natural ball playing forwards. Graham, Tolman and Kasiano all had the same role for the double second man play when they'd run it and it was something that was trained into them through repetition. Taka and Glenn Stewart both show far greater variety in their passing games and the decisions they make before the line are based more on vision and the feedback they're receiving from the defence. Boyd Cordner has the ability to be a good ball playing lock in my opinion, but it will be very interesting to see this kid in action because he sounds like a genuine ball player not just an offloader.

[Guest]

Yak, ball playing and offloading for a forward are different terminologies for the same thing imo. Every commentator in the game was calling what the dogs forwards were doing in 2012 as "ball playing", regardless of whether they did it before or at the line. And like Bosden and Taka and their block plays, it's accomplished through repetition at training.

You're right in that Glenn Stewart is the best proponent of a ball playing backrower, regardless of whether he passes before the line or offloads in it, it's the same thing.

Quick question, would you consider SBW a ball playing back rower?

Chook.

[Headless Chook]

Headless you seem to be under the impression that forwards have been regularly throwing cut out passes when they haven't. It was only this season that Hasler had his forwards chain passing before the line and it was deemed innovative, which it was. But not even the dogs forwards are throwing cut out passes! Taka has thrown two cut out passes in two years. It's not the norm for a forward. Offloading is the norm for a forward and that deems them a ball playing forward, Fletch, Cartright, Clyde, non of them were renowned for their cut out passes but for their offloading ability.

And if you want to split hairs Headless, chain passing before the line is a hell of a lot easier than offloading in it where you have players trying to wrap up the ball.

Chook.

No I haven't been thinking that. That's why when you said ball playing back rowers are a dime a dozen I disagreed. There have been some down through the years without doubt, but they are a rare beast these days. Think David Solomona. John Cartwright could throw a nice pass, Fletch had a very good long pass on him and often jumped intop first or 2nd receiver. You have a limited memory of these guys if you think it was only offloading that they did.

By the way, you seem to be the one who deems ball playing to be offloading. I see them as two completely different skills and I think you will find most coaches and analysts would be the same. I would also love to see you throw a cut out pass at the line that hits a runner in a hole. Its a difficult skill. Any forward can get an arm free and offload. I even saw Kouparitsas do it once!

As for SBW, he's a wide running back rower with an excellent off load.

[stsae]

IMO there is 3 different types of ball play forwards do.

Before the line like Glenn Stewart, he's another 5/8.

At the line, putting someone thru a hole and taking the hit, tough skill to master and you need hole runners willing to go to the line with you. The Boggs forwards did a lot of it this season. The old hit and spin technique is another old skill underutilized at the line, probably due to wrestling.

And thru the line, the old offload, one handed even. Again it requires support and size and power these days. Kasiano is built for it and Mose should be doing the same, wasted talent.

All are using the passing skill but all are different and usually performed by different types of players. IMO very few can do all three. Artie is one of the few who could and did all three regularly.

Good debate.

[Thirteen]

Mini is anything but a 5/8.

Vasco it was an attempt (obviously a poor one!) at a joke.....

[Yak]

Yak, ball playing and offloading for a forward are different terminologies for the same thing imo. Every commentator in the game was calling what the dogs forwards were doing in 2012 as "ball playing", regardless of whether they did it before or at the line. And like Bosden and Taka and their block plays, it's accomplished through repetition at training.

You're right in that Glenn Stewart is the best proponent of a ball playing backrower, regardless of whether he passes before the line or offloads in it, it's the same thing.

Quick question, would you consider SBW a ball playing back rower?

Chook.

Sorry Chook think we'll have to agree to disagree. Imo they completely different. Most forwards can offload but very few have the vision and decision making skills to be a ball player, which i consider to only occur before the line or right at it in the way that Mateo delivers most of his best passes, not after impact. Why should the term be any different for a forward or a back. You don't refer to a half that can only offload as a ball player do you, therefore why should the term be used for a forward with the same skill set. I brought up the point about the Dogs example being inappropriate because those are tight players we are talking about and in order to perform the job assigned to them do not need the vision and decision making skills of wide backrowers who inherently when playing that particular role in a block play. Yes the know the play and its options very well through repetition in training but they must also execute the correct option based on what they see in front of them with is often very different each time. Do I hit the block runner? Do i play out the back? Has the winger come up to smother? Has my block runner drawn the centre? Has the half slid to far to cover the block runner and should i go myself? If you think what those Dogs forwards were doing involved that many questions then yes we are destined to disagree on this.

In response to your question on SBW, i think it is a little ignorant to think that you can only put a player in one category. While he is certainly at his best when he hits the line and offloads he has shown during his rugby career that he definitely has all the skills and vision to ball play before the line. He is a natural offloading forward that also possesses some ball playing ability and will almost definitely stand at first and second receiver at times for us. It would be such a waste if a player with that type of offloading and linebreaking ability could not play what's in front of him before the line. Think about the room outside and inside when SBW receives the ball and pulls 3 defenders into his line in order to stop him from breaking the line and offloading.

[Vasco]

Vasco it was an attempt (obviously a poor one!) at a joke.....

Sweet as...

[Guest]

For me being able to off load a ball & being a ball player are 2 different things. Ball players have vision where off loading a ball is part of the skills base of all players IMO.

[Guest]

No I haven't been thinking that. That's why when you said ball playing back rowers are a dime a dozen I disagreed. There have been some down through the years without doubt, but they are a rare beast these days. Think David Solomona. John Cartwright could throw a nice pass, Fletch had a very good long pass on him and often jumped intop first or 2nd receiver. You have a limited memory of these guys if you think it was only offloading that they did.

By the way, you seem to be the one who deems ball playing to be offloading. I see them as two completely different skills and I think you will find most coaches and analysts would be the same. I would also love to see you throw a cut out pass at the line that hits a runner in a hole. Its a difficult skill. Any forward can get an arm free and offload. I even saw Kouparitsas do it once!

As for SBW, he's a wide running back rower with an excellent off load.

I think you're looking at Fletch and Solomona through rose coloured glasses Headless as I remember them as offloaders predominately and both had heartbreaking hands at times. And yes imo offloading is ball playing as it's not the random chance or base skill as you stated. To be able top draw multiple defenders, stand in the tackle AND offload successfully takes a lot of skill, a lot more than passing before the line imo. We'll agree to disagree.

Chook.

[Guest]

Sorry Chook think we'll have to agree to disagree. Imo they completely different. Most forwards can offload but very few have the vision and decision making skills to be a ball player, which i consider to only occur before the line or right at it in the way that Mateo delivers most of his best passes, not after impact. Why should the term be any different for a forward or a back. You don't refer to a half that can only offload as a ball player do you, therefore why should the term be used for a forward with the same skill set. I brought up the point about the Dogs example being inappropriate because those are tight players we are talking about and in order to perform the job assigned to them do not need the vision and decision making skills of wide backrowers who inherently when playing that particular role in a block play. Yes the know the play and its options very well through repetition in training but they must also execute the correct option based on what they see in front of them with is often very different each time. Do I hit the block runner? Do i play out the back? Has the winger come up to smother? Has my block runner drawn the centre? Has the half slid to far to cover the block runner and should i go myself? If you think what those Dogs forwards were doing involved that many questions then yes we are destined to disagree on this.

In response to your question on SBW, i think it is a little ignorant to think that you can only put a player in one category. While he is certainly at his best when he hits the line and offloads he has shown during his rugby career that he definitely has all the skills and vision to ball play before the line. He is a natural offloading forward that also possesses some ball playing ability and will almost definitely stand at first and second receiver at times for us. It would be such a waste if a player with that type of offloading and linebreaking ability could not play what's in front of him before the line. Think about the room outside and inside when SBW receives the ball and pulls 3 defenders into his line in order to stop him from breaking the line and offloading.

No prob mates, you make some good points, happy chatting with ya.

Chook.